Better developments through better engagement - James Palmer

James Palmer: 00:00:00

there's a lot of liability and cost that sit with that and management

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of landscapes that large take a lot of

work, take a lot of creativity, take a lot

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of forward planning, and you truly do have

to be considering social, environmental,

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and economic factors into how that

estate is going to stay productive.

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Speaker: I'm Osbert Lancaster, and

this is Changing Climate, Changing

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Midlothian, where we explore what the

climate and nature emergency means for

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people living and working in the county.

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In this episode, I'm talking to

James Palmer, a property and land

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development surveyor, who's been

closely involved in a number of

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major developments in the county.

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I met James for a walk in Dalkeith

Country Park, where as you'll

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hear, he's previously worked.

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James Palmer: So we, we've lived

in, in Dalkeith, Midlothian for

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the last uh, uh, 11 years or so.

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I was involved with redeveloping

Dalkeith Country Park.

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I was in charge of the the stable block,

the adventure playground, a lot of the the

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roads and path upgrades and also working

probably four of the five days a week

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on Shawfair which is just over the other

side of the bypass from again certainly

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Midlothian biggest land and property

development projects possibly ever.

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So that, that was that was very exciting.

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It embedded me in the the area.

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And definitely felt that felt that

Midlothian and, Dalkeith particularly were

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a wonderful place to to bring up a family.

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I've worked for a number of, of major

landowners in, in the area, Crown Estate

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Scotland, Penicuik Estates of course, um,

Buccleuch Property, Buccleuch Estates.

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And also for, for a number of years,

I, I was in charge of the Midlothian

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Council's hub public infrastructure

delivery programme, which is really all

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their major, major capital projects.

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Predominantly focused on the learning

estates, so schools delivery and also on

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some of the longer term capital planning.

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So the, the infrastructure

funding strategy and projects.

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Yeah.

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Prioritisation for, uh,

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For their, for their capital

spend over the next five years.

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Also with a, with a look

ahead into the tenure process.

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So I've worked very closely with

Midlothian Council, the planning

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authority, the environment

team roads transports, the, the

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economic development officers.

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Right.

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And the executive and, and a

lot of the the elected members

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for for a number of years now.

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So hopefully

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Osbert: Okay.

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So you've got a deep know, long term

knowledge of the, of the county and what,

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what happens and what, how it works.

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So in doing all of that, what's your,

what's your professional expertise?

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James Palmer: That's a good question.

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I often worry about that myself.

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I, I'm a property and

land development surveyor.

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Osbert: I guess you've seen a lot

of changes in terms of how climate

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change, the climate and nature,

emergency and sustainability has

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been taken account of embedded or,

or not in a lot of these processes.

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James Palmer: When I was starting off in

my professional life, 20 odds years ago.

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Sustainability was

the big, the big thing.

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And of course we were working in a

pre economic crash, that was based

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on stack of cards which came tumbling

down in: 2008

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reverted to the the previous lack of

prioritisation of the environment over

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getting growth back into economies.

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And I think until fundamentally,

until we start seeing economies as

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truly three dimensional, as opposed

to one commercially dimensional

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perspective, then we will continue

to go through the same cycles.

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And we will continue not to address

properly the, the root causes.

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Slightly current, but just back from

a holiday in North Wales where from

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our cottage, we we watched the gr

the haze of the moorland fires over

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the Rhinogs burn away for best parts

of a week and a half before the

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authorities could get it under control.

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It's an enormous concern.

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Osbert: If you could talk through some

of the work on the ground that you have

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been involved with , which has connected

with sustainability, whether that's

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climate emergency, whether that's social

justice and participation or whatever.

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James Palmer: I'll use an example of

some work I was doing with Hub Southeast

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who were delivering one of Midlothian

Council's new new school campuses up in

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in Mayfield which was primarily obviously

a, an education facility, a school.

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However, Mayfield is one of the

highest areas of social deprivation,

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lots of fuel poverty, some major

and longstanding social issues that

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were not being addressed adequately

through the facilities that the, the

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community was able to, to access.

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So with the funding that was available

for the school project we engaged

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on what what we call a essentially

a place-based review of Mayfield and

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the, the surrounding area where we

engaged with many members of the public

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community groups, both established and

more informal, local businesses, and

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extensively through the local authority.

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And to that extent, we added a

number of key facilities that we'd

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identified, or the, the community had

identified, were lacking in the area.

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And this, this was a great opportunity

to be able to deliver them as part of

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a central community campus property,

which was going to be free for

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the community to have open use of.

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To give an example, one of the

skills was basically around domestic

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training, so cooking skills, household

management, home economics essentially.

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And so delivering as part of the school,

both, both for use by the students and

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for use by the local community, areas

that could be used for teaching cost

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effective cooking practise and giving

talks and, and events, to focus on how

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the community could be supporting each

other from say a childcare perspective.

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So, yeah, that, that was, that, that

was a really positive social value

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focused exercise involving extensive

pre-design, stakeholder engagement.

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And then, that influences , the

architectural brief for the

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building and for the facility.

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And quite often that can lead

to cost efficiencies as well,

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you're not duplicating facilities

across other parts of the town.

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Working with Penicuik Estates the

project I I was leading there was

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bringing the future of the estate into

a, a commercially sustainable vision.

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Osbert: For, for those who aren't familiar

with it, what is the Penicuik Estate?

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What's it, you know,

privately owned estate or

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James Palmer: Penicuik Estates, privately

owned by now the 13th generation of Clerk

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family, a a hugely important dynasty for

Scottish history involved very much in

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Scottish Enlightenment and with multiple

generations of enormously significant

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scientific and political figures.

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Yeah.

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The estate runs to it's just over

seven and a half thousand acres.

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So three three and a half

thousand hectares of ground.

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Number of let farms, around

a thousand acres of woodland.

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A lot of it ancient woodland, some of it

commercial, a lot of it farmed in hand as

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well, which is basically the, the estate

doing doing the farming work themselves

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rather than leasing the land out.

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And with land all in Midlothian, of

that scale there's a lot of liability and

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cost that sit with that and management of

landscapes that large take, take a lot of

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work, take a lot of creativity, take a lot

of forward planning, and you truly do have

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to be considering social, environmental,

and economic factors into how that

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estate is going to stay productive.

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The, the bringing in of, of the local

community had had a, a longstanding

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heritage there, as it does with, with

Buccleuch at Dalkeith Country Park.

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It's, been free for open public access for

generations and, and very much welcomed.

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But there is a potential conflict.

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The decision was taken to create a,

a hospitality hub, so effectively a

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hotel and short term let development

within the existing buildings, largely

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as a means to fund the protection of

these listed buildings, which again,

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are extremely important Grade One Listed

and desperately needing conservation

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funding to to keep them standing properly.

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So the, the balance there was really

understanding how you could support

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the, the level of community access and

general public access into as much of the

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estate as possible, whilst being able to

create a very high quality hospitality

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environment in part of it as well.

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And I think we, we must have had over a

year's worth of very detailed engagement

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with the local Penicuik community, with

action groups, with community groups, with

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the planning authority, with the council,

with the outdoor access representatives.

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And we feel that we we arrived at a

very very positive balance between the

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two and for, for that balance to be

coupled with the ability to support

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biodiversity enhancement projects,

such as the the regeneration of

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the the peatland area, which is at

Auchencorth Moss, one of Europe's most

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significant deep peat environments

with enormous carbon capture potential.

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So it resulted in a series of very

positive outcomes and a lot of

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that was influenced heavily by the

the excellent inspiration that was

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generated through the public engagement.

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Osbert: So I guess in both of

those cases there was a sort of

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a certain vision at the start.

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There was lots of engagement,

consultation around all that, and

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something positive and productive

seems to have emerged from both.

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What was it about the way in which

the various people and organisations

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involved worked together or communicated

or whatever, what was it that

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enabled those processes to be so,

you know, effective and productive?

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Why did that process work?

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James Palmer: The, the

easiest answer to that is

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Osbert: is the

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James Palmer: time , the resource

and the level of information flow

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which drives deep under the skin

of the topic of conversation here.

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For influence, for inspiration, for

meaningful engagement then there needs

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to be a base level of, of understanding

and information, that is shared so

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that there can be an informed series

of, of feedback on the various points.

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The quality of feedback has to

be dependent on the quality of

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information that is provided.

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Osbert: Consultation is naively

seen as we'll tell you everything

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you need to know and you need

to believe it and agree with us.

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We're not talking quite that here,

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James Palmer: Which is perhaps the,

the ironic patronising way that the much

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engagement is, is done at, at all levels.

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The, the insinuation is that the say

in the, in the context of a planning

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application, the, the applicant or

the developer is all knowing and the,

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the stakeholder knows nothing.

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Yes.

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And therefore as, as you say, there

needs to be a, a fundamental a hundred

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percent trust assumption in what you are,

what you are telling as a developer is

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genuine and full and thorough and honest.

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And what your understanding as a

stakeholder is basic and trusting.

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Osbert: And I'd imagine in those

conversations where there is an

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element of real listening and a real

sense of building trust together

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that new knowledge, new ideas, can

be sparked through that process.

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Is that, is that your experience?

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James Palmer: To varying extent,

very much to, to varying extents.

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And the, the implication there, which

I thoroughly agree with, is the sooner

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you are engaging with partners and

with key stakeholders, the better

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because the the sooner you engage,

the more influence you can have in

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a, in a process, which is actually

somewhat backended at the moment.

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Because by the time you put a

planning application in, which is

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really legally when you can afford

to make representations or even

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objections, the design's been done.

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Osbert: Yeah.

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James Palmer: Everything is a

complete, and there there's little,

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if no ability to influence other

than at a yes or no polarised level.

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Where certainly the, by far the best

outcomes that I've been privileged

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to to work with have come through

that that degree of, of co-design.

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Osbert: Mm-hmm.

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I can visualise that most clearly

myself in the community campus at,

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at Easterhouse 'cause you, you said

explicitly how that process informed

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the way in which the buildings were,

the facilities they had and and so on.

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Yeah.

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So you mentioned three

things as being necessary.

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You mentioned knowledge, which

we've talked about a bit.

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You mentioned time and resources,

and you've touched on the time in

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the sense of the problem of the

planning process brings into that.

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Is there anything you can talk us through

about the time element of that as to where

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there are ways of giving that process, the

time it does need in different contexts?

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James Palmer: So, delivery of the

development process and the planning

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and design timings is a fairly

standard industry set, process.

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There is the ability to, to shape that

and to to have perhaps a more innovative

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and more front loaded design influence.

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So having, having more time afforded

through the briefing stages of the

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project, setting the general scope and

the terms of what is going to be designed

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and making it fit for purpose, efficient,

considered and to address the key three

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dimensional concerns around environment,

around social values and around

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economic considerations from the outset.

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It does potentially add some time and

resource need at the earlier stages of a

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project, which is really when, when things

are most impatient and highest risk.

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But actually it could be reframed

as an essential component of

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the delivery programme, which

architectural practise does well.

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Osbert: Yeah.

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Could potentially be de-risking the

process later if you've got more,

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James Palmer: Could very much Yeah.

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Be certainly it gives the the likelihood

of a successful planning application

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a much greater degree of certainty.

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. Osbert: So you said

knowledge, time, and resource.

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What, what sort of resource

are we talking about here?

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Is it money?

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Is it skills, is it expertise?

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James Palmer: All of the above.

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On both sides of the balance as well.

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Because that, that's, that can be

very much where there's an unfairness

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in, say taking an example of a big

wealthy developer coming in who

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can throw money and consultants,

time into their components.

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And then they're dealing with a single,

very time stretched planning officer.

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To, to answer your, your question

hopefully slightly more directly.

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Resource is is really fundamentally

how, how to facilitate that that

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level of information being passed

from an a, a knowledge base, a

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vision into a, a feedback mechanism.

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So from the design team for a developer

into the key stakeholders, the community,

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to then be able to, to give that feedback.

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And of course, if the community

also is either underrepresented

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or misrepresented then that can

be equally if not more impactful.

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Osbert: I remember speaking with

a, a mediator who specialise

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in conflict management.

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And I was involved in a

discussion at, at work with

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colleagues and partners and so on.

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It wasn't going well.

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And I was, why is it

always about conflict?

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Why can't we just agree and whatever?

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And and she said,

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but Osbert, "I love conflict".

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"I love conflict.

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'cause it's through conflict that you

understand what the issues are, where

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people are coming from, and that's

where the new ideas emerge from".

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And, and I still have trouble with

that, but I think there is something

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about acknowledging that until you get

together with people with different

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perceptions, coming from different

places, you can't really dig down

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into what's going on in that space.

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James Palmer: Yeah.

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I, I, as a personality, I share that

apprehension of conflicts, but I

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have had to learn as I'm sure you

have, the hard way, that's actually,

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that's how you get to a result is

how you it's how you move forward,

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it's how you influence creativity.

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And ultimately it's shying away from it is

again perhaps critically losing control.

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Osbert: Yeah.

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James Palmer: I find in all my, my

professional and frankly personal

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I life, I'm constantly challenging

myself on embracing conflict.

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Osbert: As we wrap up now, what

would your advice or encouragement

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be to, to developers working in

Midlothian, given the world we're

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in today and the situation, what

you've learned, what might they be

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thinking about and doing differently?

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James Palmer: Approaching the

conversation in a positive

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manner right from the outset.

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Engaging early with with the team at

Midlothian across the board, making

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sure you've had early workshops, making

sure you're coming with clear sets of

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priorities and proposals so that that

constructive and challenging dialogue

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can happen as soon as possible, and

therefore you will have a far clearer

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way of shaping what you want to be

doing as a developer in, in the region.

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Because if, if that happens six months

down the line and it results in an

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negative outcome, then you both wasted

your time and also the council's time.

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Engage, engage honestly and

engage as soon as as possible.

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The more I've become to trust that

principle the more positive the outcomes

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to the projects I've worked on have been.

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And there you have it.

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You've been listening to James

Palmer, head of land at Apertura

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on Changing Climate, Changing

Midlothian with me, Osbert Lancaster.

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I hope you've found the conversation

as fascinating and insightful as I did.

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Speaker 3: This conversation, along

with others in this Changing Climate,

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Changing Midlothian podcast, will bring

a variety of valuable perspectives and

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experiences to help inform discussions

as cross-sector representatives and

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community leaders meet this October

to agree a new single Midlothian

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plan, setting collective outcomes

and actions for the next three years.

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You'll find more details

about this in the show notes.

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Changing Climate, Changing Midlothian

is produced for the Midlothian Community

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Planning Climate Emergency Group by

me, Osbert Lancaster from Thrivable

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Scotland, and is kindly supported by

Midlothian Climate Action Hub, Midlothian

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: 00:20:57

Community Planning, and Vattenfall